A Conversation with Patrick Wyman & One of the Darkest HOF Episodes Ever
Normally, the History on Fire mini-episodes I produce monthly are exclusive to supporters on Substack and on Patreon. This month, however, I offer this one to everyone. I recently had the pleasure of chatting with the excellent Patrick Wyman, host of 'Tides of History'. An essay that Patrick recently wrote on his substack inspired our conversation, so here you go. I hope you enjoy it!
If you prefer, I published here a version that (I think) you can download.
Also, the other day I released a brand new episode of History on Fire available at the link provided here as well as anywhere you listen to podcasts. It’s the finale of a two-part series about the Cold War and El Salvador in the 1970s and 1980s. This is easily a contender for the darkest episode of History on Fire I’ve ever created. I am sorry to be taking you on this dark journey, but I strongly feel this is an important story that everyone should know. Over the years, I've tackled some heavy topics. This is definitely one of the heaviest.
It covers some of the things that happened in El Salvador in the 1980s, in particular the story of the massacre at El Mozote, and how policies formlated by the White House supported death squads unleashing hell on civilians. As much as humanly possible, I'll try to let the facts speak for themselves and not inject too much of my own commentary. I'll pose here again the question that I asked in my previous episode… I'd like you to picture some of the most awful human beings you could possibly imagine… genocidal maniacs, torturers, child rapists. Got the picture? Ok. Now I'd like you to imagine if you can conceive of any circumstances in which not only you wouldn't do everything in your power to stop them, but you would actually support them. Can you think of any scenario that would warrant you supporting people like that? Can you picture yourself fighting hard to make sure they have millions of dollars and supplies to carry out their activities? Keep your answer in mind as you listen to this episode.
One of the things I loved most about this episode, after getting through your two episodes regarding El Salvador of course, was how thoroughly you drew a hypothetical line in the sand, with an amicable conversation partner, and said 'bollocks to that, wouldve been unreasonable unless otherwise already told ya about, and yes we know this'.
Ish. You're Great at what you do. Still grateful to 'Dan C 'for finding you. :)
A few years ago I heard Jordan Peterson talking about "Ordinary Men". He made a comment to the effect of: When we read history we see ourselves as the "heros" or good guys, it would be far more accurate to try to view ourselves as the perpetrators. That quote has always stuck with me. It is very haunting, but absolutely true. If I grew up in a society like that, there is absolutely no reason to think that I would have been one of the 10%. It makes me grateful that I do live in a fundamentally decent place. Maybe now that I know this and understand the weakness of humans it would give me a leg up to being one of the 10%. I don't know the answer to this. Great dialog, really appreciate it.